It's fun to stay at the YHA: who gets to access the outdoors?
In this episode
We’re back! Over the summer the Youth Hostel Association announced it was selling off some of its properties in a bid to stay afloat. It seems like a cruel irony at a time when many of us had reconnected with nature over the lockdowns. The charity has long been committed to opening up the outdoors to more people, especially children and young people, says Sally Nutland. But is there a way to save the YHA hostels? We talk about what the loss of these hostels means with Talia Randall and Haroon Mota, and why it's so important that everyone can access nature in rural and urban Britain.
Plus: What made one listener throw up in their cornflakes??
Guests
Sally Nutland, Communications Manager, Youth Hostel Association (@YHAOfficial)
Haroon Mota, Founder Muslim Hikers and the Active Inclusion Network (@Haroon_Mota / @Muslim_Hikers)
Talia Randall, Writer, performer and podcaster (@TaliaRandall)
More info
Read more about the sale of the 20 YHA properties in this John Harris column (Guardian)
Support the YHA's No Child Left Behind Campaign for children who are unable to afford a school residential
Visit YHA Boggle Hole
Learn more about and support Muslim Hikers
Listen to Talia’s podcast 'Blossom Trees and Burnt Out Cars' on BBC Sounds
Learn more about the Right To Roam campaign and listen to our episode on it
Read more about the benefits of parks and green spaces and research by Natural England on engaging under-represented groups in nature
We love hearing from you. If you have views on this episode, or ideas for future shows you can contact us via our website, our social media (@cheerfulpodcast) or write us an email (reasons@cheerfulpodcast.com)
Episode transcript
Geoff: Let's start the conversation: we're thrilled to be joined by Sally Nutland, who is Communications Manager at YHA, the Youth Hostel Association. Hello, Sally.
Sally: Hello, Geoff. Lovely to be here. Thanks for having me.
Geoff: Well, thanks for talking to us. How long have you worked for the YHA?
Sally: It's actually my 11 year anniversary this week. So I've been here a good long time.
Geoff: How will you be celebrating?
Sally: Probably a cheeky Prosecco on Friday!
Geoff: In a youth hostel?
Sally: Maybe. I think we do Prosecco actually in the modern YHA, so maybe!
Geoff: This is already turning my preconceptions about youth hosts on its head! But we’re going to talk about this news that YHA is going to have to sell off 20 of its properties in a couple of minutes. But before that, do you just want to give us a bit of background? Maybe people don't know about the YHA in the first place. So it was set up in 1930…
Sally: That's right. So, the movement itself internationally started in 1912 with Richard Schirrmann in Germany. And we took a good 20 years to look at what we were going to do. But it is part of this social reformist movement: they were worried over how to get young people in inner cities out into the countryside. [Following] healthy pursuits, as part of the Countryside Act and access movement. Never before could a young person have somewhere where they'd find an affordable, warm welcome and they could move on to somewhere else the next day and really explore the landscapes of England and Wales.
Geoff: It’s interesting because that's something we've talked about on the podcast quite a lot: who is the countryside for? Who feels welcome in the countryside, who feels like it should be their space? And of course ‘it’s for all’ is the answer. But that's not always the case. And it's interesting to know that those conversations were happening back when YHA was set up as well.
Sally: Absolutely. Really pioneering people. Really very progressive people. We've got roots in Quakerism. We've got roots in social reform, pacifists. People really kind of in love with the idea of national landscapes being available to everybody.
Geoff: The fact that it should be affordable to everybody. Was that part of the DNA of it even back in 1930?
Sally: Absolutely. Affordability is at the very heart of it. And back in the day, we could keep costs low because it was entirely volunteer run and led by young people. They wanted a hostel in their area, so they'd find a building, ask the landlord, ‘can we use it’? Do it up, run it themselves, and people would do chores in the thirties and forties! And that kept the cost base down, of course. And it's something that we continue to this day: is to try and make it as affordable as possible for people to see these amazing landscapes and landmarks.
Geoff: Now Sally, I want to ask something. I think Ed would've liked to have asked this, but he was feeling a bit bashful. Do you have to be a youth to stay in a youth hostel?
Sally: You don't!
Ed: Hashtag ‘asking for a friend.’
Geoff: Because, I'm a much younger man than Ed, so I imagine it's not a problem for me.
Ed: You are in the [Youth Hostel] age group, but you're saying I might be more in the Saga age group?
Geoff: Yes, yes.
Sally: No, absolutely not. You don't have to be a youth to stay. As a charity, we focus our targeted support towards youth. But what we are really about as an organisation is equitable access to adventure for the first time and a lifetime! Everyone from families with small children staying in private rooms, doing their own thing, using hostels as a jump off point for their holidays, all the way through to…we've got 80- and 90-year-olds that stay and that have been with us for our entire journey. And they'll come to hostels because they know they're guaranteed a good conversation in a social space where they're going to meet other people and be all the richer for it.
Geoff: If you don't stay in a private room, what's the key to getting the top bunk?
Sally: That’s a negotiation with your bunky! And always ‘first come, first served’ is a rule that seems to stand.
Ed: Tell us about some of your best memories of staying in youth hostels over the years, Sally?
Sally: I've stayed in loads of course, but my favourite anecdote is when I volunteer managed YHA Tintagel down on the South coast. And it really opened my eyes to - it was fairly early on in career with YHA - opened my eyes to just the different people that stay with us!
So we had one fellow in his early eighties who was taking a week out to write poetry by the coast. We had the lycra lads that were doing John O’Groats to Land’s End and working their way back around the coast. And then we had a group of - I think it was 10 or 12 twenty-something girls - that were all dressed as King Arthur on a hen do! Where else do you get that?
Ed: That’s diversity.
Sally: Absolutely, absolutely.
Ed: And talk to us about the why the charity's work has become so much more difficult to sustain in the last few years.
Sally: It comes as no surprise, we are not immune from the impact of lockdown, inflationary pressures, the cost base on electricity, and the recruitment crisis. And then of course we are at the more affordable end. We are at the lower-cost end and all of our work is supported by our user base. That's where we get our funds from.
And of course, schools. I mean, about a third of our income comes from welcoming school groups and as you’ll know, there’s isn’t a more squeezed purse than in education at the moment.
Geoff: Were things in fairly robust shape prior to the pandemic? Have visitor numbers been steady for a long time?
Sally: I'm really happy to say that it was working! We'd gone through 10 years of modernisation, which had really brought up the standard in hostels and it would amaze you to see the standard that hostels have got to these days. And so we saw consecutive year-on-year growth in terms of income, but also impact. So a million people through our doors every year. And then of course the pandemic hit.
Geoff: And tell us about the selling off of these properties then. You've described the financial circumstances behind it, but just talk to us a bit more about that decision.
Sally: Our network is really diverse. It's currently around 150 properties. Now we've got a lot of historic buildings, characterful buildings, but you can't standardise those easily. At the heart of this plan to get us out - and not only be surviving the crisis, but thriving so that the charity continues for another 90 years – we’ve got to cut our costs, we've got to bring in efficiencies.
We know that the majority of our income and impact comes from a core set of hostels. Of course, it's brilliant to have the breadth across England and Wales, but we know that by retaining this core strategic network, we're going to retain and grow the work that we do. We're also looking at a model of franchising. We've had private ownership since the 1930s, but now we're formalising that and putting 20 hostels on the market, often smaller hostels. And we are looking to work in partnership with local entrepreneurs. And you know, we sincerely hope that they will stay as hostels.
Geoff: But that's not a condition of the sale?
Sally: That’s absolutely not a condition. It's just our hope.
Geoff: What seems so frustrating – and a sense that we've had on the podcast from a lot of the conversations we’ve had - is that in the pandemic there was a reconnection with nature and spending time with nature that a lot of people felt and has continued in the years since the restrictions were lifted. And it feels like really it could be even more of a resurgence for YHA, but you've got this millstone around your neck because of those years of lockdown.
Sally: I think you're absolutely right. Lockdown did create a pent-up appetite for connection with nature, and we certainly saw a bubble effect immediately afterwards and we saw new people through our doors. It was absolutely amazing, but the reality remains that we've got a larger estate that needs to be heated and energy costs are a big thing. We've looked at a number of different ways to go ahead, but this is the way ahead that we can see that will mean we can continue to do what we do best. And hopefully bring partners on board so that they can do what they do best.
Ed: I asked you earlier on about your best memories of staying in hostels over the years. If our listeners are looking for a sort of September holiday. Where would you like to send them?
Sally: I think everyone should start with YHA Boggle Hole. So it's on the Yorkshire Heritage Coast and it's an amazing name…
Ed: Say the name again!
Sally: YHA Boggle hole.
Geoff: Boggle Hole.
Ed: The mind boggles.
Sally: Absolutely. Yeah. And it's a fantastic place, especially for children. So parents, they get dumped at the door by their kids who go and meet their new best mates and do a treasure hunt round, and they try and find all the pirate-y bits around it. It's fantastic.
Geoff: I need to ask you about chores. What is expected?
Sally: Nothing's expected! As I said, chores are a thing of the past, and they suited their purpose at the time.
Ed: What if Geoff wanted to do chores?
Sally: You absolutely can lend hand and we have a vibrant volunteering programme. Sometimes that's how people travel for free, as they'll join us on a hostel placement to make beds for other guests and things like that. And they can travel very cost-effectively that way. So you're very welcome, Geoff.
Geoff: I see myself more as a supervisor / constructive critic.
Sally: Oh, we've plenty of them.
Ed: Washer-upper?
Geoff: I would definitely watch you wash up, Ed, and give you some pointers.
Ed: A washer upper, or maybe Geoff, you and I could cook?
Sally: Absolutely.
Geoff: You want to be careful here, Sally. You need to see some photographs of Ed's cooking before you agree.
Ed: I might sort of finish off the youth hostelling industry with my cookery!
Sally: Well, we'll let you loosen the self-catered kitchen for a practice.
Ed: I think that's probably sensible, prudent.
Geoff: Just speak to us a little bit more about the work you do with children, because I know there's a particular initiative that's been very important to YHA.
Sally: Absolutely. So our No Child Left Behind Appeal. It’s a million-pound appeal to try and fund school residentials for children that otherwise would miss out. So, we are fundraising at the moment and making sure that they can come along and have those formative experiences because there is an attainment gap, but there's a risk of there being an experience gap for children. So all support is welcome!
Geoff: Do you want to finish off with a reason to be cheerful? It is disheartening hearing that you're having to let go of these properties. But give us a reason to feel upbeat about youth hostels and what they mean for access to nature for people.
Sally: I think the spirit of adventure remains, and as an organization, I think what we are really good at is appreciating that there are grassroots organisations out there doing fantastic work in bringing young people and communities out of their areas into nature and the outdoors and appreciating culture and heritage.
And I think YHA will live on. I think because it has to: it's the best education out there!
Ed: Well look, Sally Nutland, it's been great to talk to you. Thank you for the tips. And Geoff will be coming to a youth hostel near you soon to do some chores, won't you, Geoff?
Geoff: See you in Boggle Hole.
Ed: See you in Boggle Hole, as they say.
Sally: Great to speak to you. Thank you.
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Ed: I'm delighted to say that to carry on the conversation, we are joined now by Talia Randall and Haroon Mota.
Talia is a writer, performer, and podcaster. She wrote and produced a podcast series about accessing nature called Blossom Trees and Burnt Out Cars, which you can get on BBC Sounds. We love promoting other people's podcasts as well as our own.
And Haroon who is founder of Muslim Hikers and the Active Inclusion Network. Thank you so much both for joining us.
Haroon: Thank you.
Ed: We’ve just spoken to Sally from the Youth Hostel Association about the closure of 20 youth hostels. Could you tell us what kind of loss this represents to you? Talia, why don't you start?
Talia: Well, obviously it's a huge loss for affordable travel in the UK, but to me it's got me thinking about the economic picture a bit more broadly. I'm wondering if there's a link between things like second home ownership or holiday home ownership and all the letting that that is happening in, say, the Lake District, and people opting for those options instead of going to Youth Hostels.
I think it's making me think about local connection to nature and how that's declining. So if we are not seeing people from cities, especially getting out in their local green space or park, it's not going to ladder up to those bigger hiking adventures.
And I think that's something that I can say for myself. So I grew up in London and the idea of going out hiking in the countryside when I was younger was not something that I really considered. Maybe because I didn't have that deep connection to local green space. So, I think it's part of that broader story.
Geoff: And how about you Haroon? You’re a Youth Hostel fan.
Haroon: I am indeed. I'm at a youth hostel this weekend in the Yorkshire Dales, and I was there last week at YHA Patterdale, and I discovered that that's one of the hostels that will be for sale as well.
I think it's important to understand that for many ethnic minority communities, engaging with nature and the outdoors isn't necessarily part of our cultural and lifestyle norms.
So facilities like the YHA act as a catalyst, not just in providing a place to stay, but also introducing people to the very concept of the outdoors as a recreational and enriching experience. And the YHA has historically served as a vital bridge, making the great outdoors accessible to everyone. And for many people, especially those of ethnic minority communities, the sheer cost of travelling to and staying in the countryside can be a significant deterrent. The YHA has been crucial in providing a cost-effective solution.
So there will be a ripple effect. Whilst you know there's a decision to sell 20 hostels, it might seem like a mere drop in the ocean given their extensive network. But we need to recognize the ripple effect that this could have. Every hostel serves as a gateway for countless individuals, especially from underrepresented communities, to experience the British countryside.
Only this year our own collaboration with YHA was a testament to the difference that these facilities can make. We recently held our first ever residential adventure weekend. Which was a resounding success, bringing 120 people together for two nights at YHA Castleton in the Peak District, and events like this foster community spirit, and a collective appreciation of nature. And, we hope that we can carry on.
Ed: And Haroon, talk to us about what inspired you to set up Muslim hikers in 2020.
Haroon: So I've been hiking and adventuring for nearly 20 years now, and I recognised that the same level of diversity that I would see in my hometown of Coventry, it wasn't reflected in rural spaces. Over the years I realised that there was a lack of diversity in the outdoors, a lack of inclusion, primarily down to the fact that we don’t have the outdoors embedded within our culture and lifestyle norms.
During the pandemic in September 2020, I set up the Muslim Hikers Instagram page. This was purely for the purpose of creating online community to try and normalise the outdoors for ethnic minorities. And at the same time to tackle loneliness and isolation. The page just rapidly grew and received so much recognition and appreciation, not just here in the UK but globally. Fast forward a couple of years, we are now the largest community in the world for Muslims, interested in the outdoors. I believe that our hiking events, our hiking event portfolio boast the largest number of regular walking events in the country.
Every other weekend we are out hiking with 150 to 200 people. This weekend we're in Malham in the Yorkshire Dales with 150 people. And last weekend we were in the Lake District. we promote safety in numbers. Our events promote safety, confidence, and awareness in the outdoors. These are people that wouldn't otherwise get outside because of lack of confidence, wouldn't otherwise go outside because they feel they don't belong in the outdoors.
People often ask us, why are you called Muslim Hikers? What has your faith got to do with going outside? It's got everything to do with community. Community is paramount in our faith and we wouldn't have had the success we've had if we weren't who we are and what we call ourselves.
So we're proud of the community that is thriving now.
Ed: Haroon, you made a sort of reference to this. You said it wasn't part of the Muslim culture, the outdoors. What do you think the reasons are for that?
Haroon: I can speak for myself initially. I grew up not knowing about the countryside or not knowing about the outdoors as somewhere as being a place that benefits one's wellbeing or somewhere that is open and welcoming and free. If I didn't do it as a kid and if I didn't see people from my own community, my friends and my family doing it, why would I ever associate it as a place that I can go or would go?
And I think that's one thing that people fail to recognise. People would often say, ‘what's stopping you from going outside? Just put on your shoes and go!’ That's easy for people to say when it's what they did every day growing up on their doorstep.
Geoff: And Talia, it sounds like some of what Haroon is describing mirrors your own experience as somebody who grew up in the city. And you made this podcast Blossom Trees and Burnt Out Cars, and you talked to people who did feel there was a barrier between them and nature. Talk to us a little bit more about the type of stories you heard.
Talia: Totally. So I think the barriers, there are just many. And they overlap and they intersect. So Haroon just said someone saying, ‘oh, why don't you just put your shoes on and go for a walk?’ Well, you have to also have the hiking boots in the first place!
Some of the people that I was speaking to: Black Girls Hike. Who bring black women together to hike in the outdoors. And it's really that feeling of safety, belonging, being understood. And even things like finding plus size hiking gear, All of these small things, that unless it affects you, you don't always think about.
When we talk about ‘access to nature’, the broader picture that I think impacts the vast majority of us is the Right to Roam. So in England, we don't have access to 92% of the land because of trespassing laws. That's a barrier that -unless we're one of the few landowners - we all share. And I think for me, when I started to connect to nature only recently during lockdown, I really realised that our relationship to nature reveals so much about our identity. It reveals a lot about class, about race, about sexism, about all these different issues. Nature isn't a neutral subject. And I think that when we begin to interrogate our own relationship to nature, all of these other really important justice issues come up. That I think is the key thing that I took from the podcast and all the different people that I spoke to.
Ed: As we think about the solutions, I mean, one of the things that occurs to me listening to this conversation is part of this is about taking nature to people rather than people to nature. In other words, you know, if urban areas have more green spaces, so on people's doorsteps, isn't that more likely to engage people than it becoming a sort of big thing that you've got to go kind of a long distance to get to some green space?
Haroon: I've been involved in such work here in my local city of Coventry. I think greater work needs to be done to get more people active in local green spaces. And at the same time, getting people out into the countryside for the wellbeing benefits of getting outside, and also to address the stubborn sort of statistics. You know, less than 1% of visitors to UK National Parks come from ethnic minority communities, and that's a rather shocking statistic that needs to change.
Talia: So there was an analysis done recently that showed that there's been massive real terms cuts to spending on public parks and local parks, and the highest cuts are in the areas with the highest deprivation. And for me getting people out into adventure and getting people out into local small adventure: it's all part of the same story! Yes, going to a local park, spending time there, feeling belonging can make you hike more. But I think also spending time in the great outdoors also want makes you want to invest in more local nature as well. I don't think that they're entirely separate. I think it's one in eight people in the UK don't have a garden. It's quite a high proportion and those spaces are vital for people.
Ed: Talk to us about this feeling of being connected to nature, Talia. If people are being systematically excluded from it, that is a massive deprivation, isn't it? And how do you expect people to act pro-environmental ways if they're totally unconnected from nature?
Talia: I think that's a really interesting point and I think absolutely the more you feel that you belong in nature, the more it nurtures you, the more you want to nurture nature back. Right? But I also think that we focus a lot on individual behaviour, which is important. But if we are thinking about pro-environmental behaviour in a summer where we've had so much sewage discharge into the seas and rivers, those are the questions we need to also be asking!
Yes, we can talk about people leaving crisp packets on the field. Sure, that's important, but who are the big players with the biggest power? How can we collectively hold these people and organisations to account?
A point that was shared with me from Josie O Driscoll, who is from the traveller community and she was saying that many people from the traveller community are already engaging in pro-environmental behaviour. So upcycling, collecting scrap metal, living symbiotically with the environment in times when travellers were able to travel, unlike now. And yet, traveller communities are very, very rarely offered a seat at the table when it comes to climate change policy and discussion. And that's because we haven't really untangled this idea of prejudice and marginalisation from nature discussion. It's like I said before, nature isn't neutral! And I think that we need to think about that as part of it.
Ed: And what are the other solutions?
Haroon: I mean, it's great that over the last few years, especially since the pandemic, there's been an emergence of groups like ours. You know, Talia, you just mentioned Black Girls Hike, which are again pioneering and doing some fantastic work. Lots of people are talking - like we are talking now, which is great - but we need to see action! If there's pioneering groups like ours who are experts in engaging communities and getting people outside, then what are we as a collective doing to enable and empower such communities? One of our biggest, limitations is just internal resource and finance.
Geoff: So you've had this incredible success with Muslim Hikers, what could support that externally? What would make that easier for you or give you more scale?
Haroon: Yeah, just for perspective. our hikes are typically like 150 to 200 people. They're the massive sort of festival type walks which inspire communities and empower people. Again, people will criticise this and say that we are not being considerate to the environment, but I have my own thoughts on that. For every event we organise, we turn away the same amount of people. So events will typically sell out in two, three hours for 150 people. We're turning away the same amount of people. There's a demand for people to get outside! There's a demand for inclusive walks. So we need to increase our capacity to be able to broaden and diversify our walks. We want to organise hiking events in different parts of the country to reach more people.
But also we want to find scalable and sustainable models of work. We don't want people to become reliant on these large types of walks. Naturally, it's already happened that people will join our walks. They'll gain independence and confidence to go away and walk with their own families, their friends, or for solo adventure.
We've seen plenty of that, which is wonderful. But we need investment that's going to help us grow as an organisation. We are experts in doing what we're doing. We are doing incredibly well. We haven't reinvented the wheel. We've just created a safe space for community, and that's what has inevitably allowed such massive organic growth.
Geoff: Talia, you've had all these conversations on the podcast. Just to finish, what is the change that is needed so that everyone feels welcome in nature and that they're benefiting from it too?
Talia: I think there's a couple of changes that I would like to see, I would love to see a Right to Roam England, like they have in Scotland. Because I think that's going to open up access to so many more people!
I would love to see serious investment and reinvestment into local public park spaces. And I would love for anyone listening to this podcast who considers themselves to be a nature enthusiast or interested in nature to also - if you're not already - think about how issues of racism, classism, sexism, are part of our thinking on nature.
Because I think that nature and justice, they go hand in hand. And the reason why I say that is for my own story. So when lockdown hit, which is when a lot of these initiatives started, Haroon started his initiative in lockdown - I really felt that my reliance on nature just, it suddenly came from nowhere.
I was like: I'm relying on nature and walking in the woods in a way that I never have before! And that's partly because of where I live now on the edge of London, and there's a woodland behind my house, which I'm incredibly lucky for. So I grew up on a council estate and although I loved it and I was very lucky that I had a garden on my estate, at the very edge of the estate there was a nature reserve. It was small, but it was always locked. It was a very, very clear signal to me and my friends that kids from estates aren't to be trusted with nature. And I think with those big gates, I internalized that message.
As a side note, we still broke into the nature reserve because we were like: we wanna go and pick blackberries and drink lemonade and just hang out! We didn’t want to get up to no good. We just wanted to play. And my connection to nature is also my story of my changing class status. And that is a story that I think resonates with lots of other people and I wanted to bring them into the conversation as well! I think a lot of more people have been having those mini revelations during that kind of lockdown time.
Ed: Well look, it's been a great conversation. Talia, Randall and Haroon Mota. Thank you so much.
